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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:00:00):
Kenneth LaMaster, welcome to the podcast.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:00:02):
Thank you.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:00:03):
I am so excited to have you here. I told you that I went down a rabbit trail to find you, although it actually
wasn't too difficult to find you because you have quite the record we're gonna get into where you've been
featured for your expertise. But let's go into who you are, okay? Prison historian, author, and former
correctional officer of FCI Leavenworth for 31 years.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:00:26):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:00:27):
Now FCI Leavenworth. It wa - it changed names, correct?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:00:30):
In 2005, they downgraded the United States Penitentiary at Leavenworth to an FCI, and it was pretty
much basically a, a funding -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:00:39):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:00:40):
Type thing. Uh, FCIs get more money - Uh-huh <affirmative>. Than USPs do.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:00:44):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:00:45):
So, and they changed the whole dynamics of the institution. Uh, we actually walked around the institution
for about 10 days with, uh, no inmates. Oh, how weird. Which is actually more scary than - I
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:00:58):
Bet.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:00:59):
Than - Seems
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:01:00):
Eerie.
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Yeah. It's like, what do we do now?
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:01:02):
Yeah. <laugh> Well, so I, okay, so first of all, we live in the world where people are crime junkies, true
crime junkies. They love the podcast. I love the documentaries. People have gotten so fascinated in this
world. Um, actually what triggered me to end up finding you, I think I told you this, is that I listened to
another podcast with a, um, psychologist who actually went to Leavenworth to study criminals who were
there for, um, child sexual abuse. Heavy topic, right? But the fact that she brought up she went to
Leavenworth really kind of triggered for me, interesting, this woman's like in California, whatever. I
didn't know the full history of Leavenworth, which is one of the, the nation's oldest federal penitentiary.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:01:50):
It is known as the flagship of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. It's the first federal prison opened in 1904.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:01:57):
That's crazy.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:01:58):
And, uh, the Bureau of Prisons actually started under the Federal Prison Service. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. And it was founded in, uh, 1893.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:02:11):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:02:12):
The argument's always been that Leavenworth opted for a federal prison instead of the University of
Kansas. <laugh>. Well, the University of Kansas, the University of Kansas is like 20 years older than the
federal prison -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:02:23):
Oh my gosh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:02:24):
System. So it, it, uh, people always wanna argue that point with me, but -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:02:29):
Yeah. Uh, the,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:02:31):
Uh, prison itself is the very first. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I always tell people that before there was
Alcatraz, before there was Marion that replaced Alcatraz, and before there was the Supermax in, uh,
Colorado, there was Leavenworth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:02:50):Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:02:50):
All of the institutional problems of the world came to us. Yeah. And we treated inmates totally different
than anybody else in the world. Back then in that era, uh, officers were allowed to dictate what their
punishments were for inmates. Uh, they carried clubs, they were brutal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, as
we talked about earlier, they could be torturous sometimes. You gotta pull some of those
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:03:15):
Stories into this because man, that's fascinating.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:03:17):
So it, it's, when the federal prison system was developed, it was okay. And the people that were really sort
of really just brutalized were the individuals who committed crimes against the government. Mm. Money
crimes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:03:35):
Specifically that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:03:36):
Uh, they would take, and if you were a, uh, murderer -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:03:40):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:03:41):
They would brand, uh, M in your forehead.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:03:44):
No way.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:03:45):
If you were a deserter, they would brand you with a D. If you were an adulterer, they branded you with an
A. It's
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:03:50):
Like a scarlet letter.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:03:51):
Yeah. And, and the situations were just out of control. There's one situation where, uh, there's a book out
there called The Twin Hells. It's about the Kansas State Penitentiary and the Missouri Penitentiary. Mm
hmm. Where they talk about they found a, uh, inmate stealing food out of the kitchen. And they put him
in one of the, uh, steel milk containers in water up to just barely below his nose and left him there for likea week to 10 days.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:04:23):
Whoa.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:04:24):
And then got him out. And it, it's things like that. Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:04:29):
Wow.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:04:30):
And it's things like that that the federal government wanted to change.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:04:34):
Well, it's interesting the juxtaposition of someone who's in there for most likely a horrific crime, right?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:04:40):
They're, they're not there for saying it too loud in church.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:04:42):
That's right. Yeah. So then the idea of like, is this right or wrong the way that they're being penalized and
treated? Clearly it was a free for all back in the day. So a lot has changed since then. I have a question.
Why, why Leavenworth? Do you have any idea how that came to be? Was that -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:04:59):
When the Three Prisons Act was actually passed through Congress and funded, uh, it's like everything
else. Congress passes it and then two years later they fund it. Um, they wanted to set up a penitentiary in
the Southeast, Midwest, and upper northern part of the United States. Okay. So that's where you came up
with Atlanta, Georgia, Leavenworth, Kansas. Mm-hmm. And McNeil Island, Washington. Those were
the first three federal prisons in existence in the United States.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:05:29):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:05:30):
And Leavenworth happened to be the one that opened first.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:05:33):
Mm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:05:33):
And they opened the, the doors to the first United States penitentiary, Leavenworth, actually at the old
military prison on Fort Leavenworth on one July 1895. Okay. And they knew from the very beginningthat that institution wasn't suitable for housing, uh, civilian criminals - uh-huh. From the jump because in
areas of the, uh, prison, the walls are shallow. They're not that far off the ground. Mm-hmm. So it was, we
determined, they determined that they, uh, they ascensioned the southwest portion of the military
reservation of Fort Leavenworth to build the, uh, federal prison. And that southwest corner is actually,
was the origination point for the Santa Fe Trail going across, uh, going west. Okay. And the Santa Fe Trail
actually traverses through the center of the federal prison.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:06:32):
Oh, interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:06:33):
So it, it's, uh, history ties - Yeah. To everything in that area at the time.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:06:38):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:06:39):
It was readily accessible because it was in the Uni - middle of the United States. Mm-hmm. Uh, the
institution was built by primarily, uh, all inmate labor.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:06:49):
Wow.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:06:49):
They actually built the house where they lived.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:06:52):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:06:52):
They marched - And one
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:06:53):
Thing I though was really interesting, I don't know, I guess this, what year this would have changed, but
one thing, one, it looks like Congress. Is that right?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:07:01):
It, it was fashioned upon the congressional buildings in Washington DC. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Leavenworth
and Atlanta, both.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:07:08):
Oh, Atlanta too. Mm-hmm. And then also the fact that there was no AC. So inmates and officers were
working in sometimes Kansas heat of like 140 degrees.Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:07:16):
Uh, I've been on top of a cell house, uh, dealing with an individual that has torn up a cell and is not
cooperating for anything. We were up there one night for almost three hours - Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Trying to diffuse the situation. And, uh, this was January.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:07:34):
Okay.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:07:35):
And the temperature on the cell, and the top of the cell house was 148 degrees.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:07:39):
Yeah. I just bring that up in terms of like what people are dealing with. Um, I'm sure that's different now,
right? But - And they're, they're going through like, what, a renovation or an addition at Leavenworth
right now?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:07:49):
They're actually building a whole brand new facility. It's a
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:07:51):
Whole new facility. Okay. Got it. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:07:54):
Yeah. Because they're, they're slated to close, uh, the old penitentiary sometime this year.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:07:59):
And we talked, so they're, to be clear, you can't do any tours there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:03):
No.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:08:03):
I know plenty of people who would love to tour it. You
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:05):
Can't tour it. Actually, actually you can do tours.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:08:08):
Illegally?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:09):
Yeah, yeah. You can, you, you can, people would pull up to the front end of the institution and all givetours. Sure.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:08:14):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:14):
You know, five, 10, 15, 25 life. It's just according to what crime you wanna - There
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:08:18):
You go. Yeah.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:19):
Commit in order to get that tour.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:08:21):
You can get the ultimate long-term tour. Yeah. Um, anyway, so yeah. So I though that was really
interesting just to hear about like some of the backstory of like how it ended up looking like the
congressional building and like what kind of people, like the, um, uh, just our, the environment that
people dealt with, with this prison being so old, you know? Yeah, it,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:39):
It's, but it's a unique building because, uh, one of the, uh, uh, attorney generals visited the institution early
on and during its construction.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:08:51):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:08:51):
And he was cited. Uh, I believe the guy, the attorney general's Homer Cummings, uh, when he first
walked into the institution, he was taken back at the fact that, uh, the main building, the rotunda, looks
like the congressional hall with terrazzo floors. They had marble on the walls. Oh my gosh. Uh, the cell
houses are built in a radial style, uh, where they actually encircle the rotunda. Yeah. And it was, it, it's
quite an interesting looking building when you first go in there because you're - I bet. It, and back in the
early days when they started construction, all you really had to do as a civilian was walk up and tell the
warden you wanted to tour. Mm-hmm. And he would assign one of the associate wardens to you and you
would, he would actually take you on a tour of the construction.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:09:43):
Really?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:09:44):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:09:45):Gosh, people would, no, no pun intended, kill for that today.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:09:49):
Yep, probably.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:09:50):
Yeah. Literally.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:09:51):
Yeah. There's, there's, it, it, and it's a, it's actually a beautiful building. It's, it's, it's unbelievable on the
inside.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:09:57):
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I bet. I think when I was telling my husband that I was doing this episode, he was like,
record that, like, remote at the prison.
" <laugh> I was like,
"You need to
"Let me see what I can do about that. That
would be a really interesting situation.
"
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:08):
Yeah. Actually, maybe in the future you could do that. Yeah. But anymore or right now -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:10:12):
Yeah. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:14):
You can do it, but it has to be from the opposite side of, uh, Metropolitan Avenue.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:10:18):
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so let's get into, you're a Kansas guy. No, you're originally from
Kentucky.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:10:24):
We'll get into, um, I wanna know a little bit more about your backstory, but I first wanna know, how did
you end up working at Leavenworth?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:32):
Uh, sort of like just every other individual that gets out of high school, I joined the Army.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:10:38):
Okay.Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:38):
Uh, Uncle Sam said,
"Go West young man.
" Uh-huh
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:10:42):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:42):
He never gave me a horse to go back East on, so here I am. <laugh> But, uh, I started in 1979 at the
military prison at Fort Leavenworth. Mm-hmm. And worked there. I was there for two years, nine
months, and 21 days. I wasn't keeping count.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:10:58):
Not at all.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:10:58):
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Not, not at all. <laugh> Uh, I had an interview with the federal prison before I got out of the army. And,
uh, the individual interviewed me was a, named Gary Henman. He was an associate warden there. And he
says,
"You know, you checked all the boxes. Your, you know, you're just exactly what we need. There's
only one problem.
" I said,
"What's that?" And he says,
"With your military haircut, no mustache. You
look like you're 12 years old.
" Oh. So, uh, go out to the state penitentiary, uh, grow your hair out, throw a
mustache. <laugh> And, uh, come back and see us in six to eight months. And, uh, when I went back to
see him in six to eight months, I found out that my interview was actually, uh, going over, uh, what day
would you like to start?
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:11:45):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:11:46):
So on seven / 24 / 83 -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:11:48):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:11:49):
Uh, I stepped into the, the United States Penitentiary Leavenworth. Mm-hmm. And the story goes from
there. And it, it's, it's a unique institution all on its own.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:12:00):
How did you feel? Like, what was your first day like going into this new job?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:12:07):
Sort of being the, I always call myself a, a, a history idiot.Mindy Hargesheimer (00:12:13):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:12:13):
Because I read some of the most mundane history that most people will go - I don't
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:12:18):
Think you're alone in that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:12:19):
Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's kind of, uh, I grew up in a family that was readers.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:12:24):
Mm-hmm. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:12:25):
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All of my siblings were older than me. And when I say older than me, my oldest sister was 18 years older
than me.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:12:31):
Okay. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:12:32):
So, uh, they grew up in an era when TV wasn't a norm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:12:36):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:12:37):
So they read. So they taught me to read. And, uh, I've been reading ever since. Yeah. And we, I get to
Leavenworth and work in a military prison. It's, it's, it, it's, it's a prison, but I always tell people the
difference between a place like military prison and a federal prison is you know that the military prisoners
at one point had some type of discipline - uh-huh. And training where civilian prisons are totally different.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:09):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:10):
Uh, they may not have the same benefit as these guys that were in the military. So I joined the military.
They sent me west. Uh, over the course of the three years I was at the DB, I met a young lady and married
her.Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:25):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:26):
We've now been married for 44 years.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:28):
Congratulations.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:29):
That's amazing. We, uh, have decided that we can't release each other back into the wild - Yeah. For fear
of lawsuits and legalities, but, uh -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:38):
You've told her too many stories too.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:39):
Yeah. <laugh> She, she's the one that, uh, that will wake me up occasionally and say, uh, you all right?
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:47):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:47):
Yeah, maybe. <laugh>
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:48):
Some nightmares in there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:49):
Yeah. Some,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:49):
Uh, dreams coming from former -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:51):
There, there's a few things that - Days on the job. That, uh, play on a loop -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:56):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:56):In, in your head. We
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:13:57):
Might need to hear about those at some point if you
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:13:59):
Can tell us. Yeah. It's kind of one of those that's, it's, uh, the best part about corrections, uh, per se is, uh,
you see something almost hourly that makes you go, huh.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:10):
Humans are capable of that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:12):
Yes. The, the, the -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:14):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:14):
Yeah. You look at these people and you just think to yourself, there's a reason why you're here.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:19):
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Yeah. Yeah. There are a reason why you're here and now you are contained in a place that is probably
make your, making your brain spiral into other areas of - Yeah,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:28):
Because it,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:28):
It is. Making choices that you're like, okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:30):
It, it's an environment that, that. I mean, in the 32 years that I was involved in corrections total, uh, I've
seen. I can't tell you how many assaults I've seen. Oh,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:42):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:42):
Uh, physical, sexual.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:44):Yeah. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:45):
I can't, I. Somebody asked me one time how many homicides did I think I see? And I was kinda like
somewhere along the line of 25.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:14:56):
That you witnessed firsthand.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:14:58):
That, that I was involved with in some form or another. Mm-hmm. And I mean, I've seen some of the
most notorious individuals that you'd ever wanna know and ever meet. Yeah. From the, the mafia dawns
to, uh, Posse Comatatis groups to, uh, you name a gang. Mm-hmm. That I've, I've seen them. Yep. Uh, so
it's, it's, it's a world inside a world that, that - Yeah. It, it's a gated community.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:15:26):
A gated community. That's one
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:15:27):
Way to put it. A gated community.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:15:28):
Yeah. Very strong gate. Okay. So let's take a minute. I want to let people know you are featured in so
many different things. You are the author of mult - a, a multitude of things. So let's go over this for a
second. Okay? So you've been featured in the John Borowski documentary about Carl Panzram.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:15:46):
Yes, ma'am.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:15:47):
The Spirit of Hatred and Vengeance.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:15:49):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:15:49):
Okay. So we're gonna get into his story because he is one of the most notorious in the US that spent time
at Leavenworth. Okay. Uh, you were featured in the PBS television series History Detectives.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:00):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:16:00):You provided institutional insight to the documentary Iceberg Slim Portrait of a Pimp.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:05):
Yep.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:16:05):
We're gonna get into him and where he went on to. Um, the television series, Chicago PD. Mm-hmm.
Fascinating. Um, the books, Inmate 1577 by Alan Jacobson and The Edge of Lost by Christina McMorris.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:20):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:16:20):
Okay. You've been a featured podcast guest on Most Notorious: A True Crime History podcast, Gangland
Wire, and My Favorite Murder, to name a few. And then last but not least, you are an author of four?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:34):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:16:34):
Four books. So you have Leavenworth seven, The Deadly 1931 Prison Break, which is probably, is that
the, kind of the primary story?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:41):
Yes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:16:41):
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Yeah. So we'll get into that Fort Leavenworth and then Pictorial
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:45):
Books.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:16:45):
So, I mean, major props to you. Like you are this incredible historian that people around the country,
probably around the world have tapped into, which is why I'm so excited to have you here to get into a lot
of these stories. So congratulations on what you've done.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:16:58):
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here as well.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:00):
Yeah, yeah. Uh -Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:01):
Which I
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:01):
Think begs the question. I wanna know, so you worked there for 31 years as a correctional officer.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:07):
I started out as a correctional officer. I actually, uh, ended my career as a material handler supervisor.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:12):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:13):
I was re - I, I actually opened and operated the first outside food service warehouse there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:20):
Nice.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:21):
So I did all of the contract work, did all of the ordering - uh-huh. Uh, request for quotes, et cetera.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:28):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:28):
But I was still, at that point in time, I was actually the official historian of the institution. So - While
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:35):
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You were there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:36):
While I was there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:17:37):
How did, what kind of led to that path to become a historian? Did that come naturally to you going back
to like you're a reader, you love history? Did you kind of take that upon yourself to kind of grasp onto and
then you've taken it from there to do all of this?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:17:50):
It actually started when I first started to work at Leavenworth. We had a, uh, sort of institutional
orientation. Mm-hmm. And in that institution orientation, uh, they talked about the 1931 escape that Ieventually wrote a book about. And it triggered, of course, the, the dopamine in my brain that said,
"Wow, that's interesting.
" Yeah. And over the course of time, uh, looking into that escape - uh-huh. I
would uncover all this other unknown history that people had long forgot about. Yeah. And I actually
started out, uh, as a novice type of, of person wanting to know more about the history of this place. And I
even actually, I had talked to officers that had worked in that institution all the way back to the 1930s.
Wow. And they were, they had told me stories about Machine Gun Kelly and, and - uh-huh. Uh, Frank
Nash and other individuals that had been in that era of criminal enterprise - Right.
(00:18:59):
That had come to Leavenworth. And the more I learned, the more I wanted to learn.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:19:05):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:19:06):
And it sort of culminated into its, its, uh, or manifested itself into a lifetime of, of whatever.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:19:13):
Yeah. Uh - A lifetime hobby, side hustle. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:19:17):
All the
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:19:17):
Above. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:19:18):
And, and somebody, my father-in-law one day said,
"You know, you need to write a book.
" And it's like,
people would never believe me. <laugh> Yeah. It, it's like, and he says,
"You know, you may want to
think about that.
" And I had actually written a couple of articles, uh, that had made newspapers and stuff
locally and, and nationally. Uh, I had wrote a, uh, my first published newspaper article was about how
would the Brady Bill have saved Ronald Reagan.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:19:48):
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Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:19:49):
Mm-hmm. So, and, and it, it sort of culminated from there. Uh, and the 31 escape was always the, the part
of the, uh, thing that just kept in the back of my head about wanting to know more and more and more
and more and more.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:20:04):
Because to this day, that's one of the most kind of legendary stories of
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:20:09):Leavenworth,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:20:09):
Right? Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:20:11):
The warden at the time, Thomas Bruce White, is the only warden in the Federal Bureau of Prison's history
to ever be taken hostage to affect an escape. Mm-hmm. And for those out there that, uh, think they've
heard the name Thomas Bruce White, he was actually the lead investigator for the FBI in the Osage
Indian murders of the 1920s that's covered in the, uh, book.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:20:38):
The, the movie, right? Leonardo? Right. Uh
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:20:42):
Uh, Killers of the Flower Moon. Thank
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:20:43):
You.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:20:44):
Yeah. And he actually started his career as a Texas ranger. Moved into, when he got married, he became a
railroad detective. Hmm. And he failed a physical to join the army in World War I. And he met a
fledgling, uh, super cop by the name of J. Edgar Hoover that asked him,
"Hey, I'm starting up this
organization. Would you be interested?" Uh-huh. And at the same time, and most people don't realize this,
uh, when, uh, I can't remember the Texas governor's name, the first female governor in the state of Texas -
uh-huh. Was elected, she abolished the Texas Rangers.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:21:28):
Oh, okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:21:29):
And a large portion of the early FBI were Texas Rangers.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:21:33):
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Got it.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:21:34):
Thomas Bruce White, his brother, Cooley White. Mm-hmm. Uh, and Cooley White is actually the guy
that shot John Dillinger in the alley.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:21:43):
I mean, these stories like intertwinedKenneth M. LaMaster (00:21:45):
Are so fascinating. Yeah. So it, it's, when you go over that entire era of criminality and law enforcement,
backstories of the FBI, the story of, uh, of the, uh, Federal Bureau of Criminal Identification - uh-huh.
Which is actually founded at the United States Penitentiary. Okay. Underneath the warden R.W.
McGlowry, who was the second warden. He was a, uh, prison, uh, expert that at the time he brought in,
uh, the battalion measurement system. Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:22:19):
Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:22:20):
He brought in fingerprinting.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:22:22):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:22:23):
Created the Federal Bureau of Criminal Identification that literally taught a large portion of law
enforcement in the United States how to fingerprint and categorize fingerprints, uh, so they could identify
individuals.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:22:38):
What year was that approximately?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:22:39):
Uh, just the early 1900s.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:22:41):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:22:42):
They, they, we wound up with two individuals at the, uh, prison by the name of West.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:22:47):
Okay.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:22:49):
And the records keeper at the time looked at them and said, looked at one of them and said, uh,
"You've
been here before.
" And he said,
"I've never been to Leavenworth.
" Hmm. And they started looking in the
records and actually found the Will West and William West. Okay. Well, as the story goes at the very
beginning, their fingerprints are almost identical.Mindy Hargesheimer (00:23:14):
Really?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:23:15):
Their bertalian measurements are almost identical. Huh. And they eventually discover that they're actually
twin brothers.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:23:25):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:23:26):
As they go along. And it's the, the common story of, uh, we think we know you. And no, I've never been
here.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:23:33):
Separated at birth.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:23:34):
And, and pretty much.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:23:36):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:23:37):
And they, it just evolves from there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:23:40):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:23:40):
And - That's
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:23:41):
Wild.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:23:41):
The St. Louis World's Fair, they had a display of fingerprints there with a, uh, Scotland Yard detective by
the name of Kenneth John Ferrier. Okay. And he actually helped Leavenworth establish the Federal
Bureau of Criminal Identification. And the warden, of course, you know, no nepotism here. <laugh> His
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son, uh, became the head of the, uh, agency. Okay. And his son actually is the very first individual to add
expert testimony to trials all over the United States. And in one particular case, the, uh, individual was
being tried for murder for murdering a family, uh, with an ax. And when he got on the stand and theystarted questioning him, he said,
"This guy is not the perpetrator of the crime.
" And they said,
"Well, how
do you know this?" Mm-hmm. And he says,
"The murderer is a left-handed dominant individual. And
you have a right-handed dominant suspect here charged with the murders.
" And I said,
"Well, how would
you know that?" And he says,
"Because the individual was left-handed.
(00:24:57):
His positions on the ax used was backwards to a right-hander.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:01):
Yeah. It's all in the details, right?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:04):
Yeah. And he actually got the individual exonerated -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:07):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:07):
From the crime. So it, it, uh, it, that started the ball rolling. So
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:11):
So many things originate with Leavenworth - uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:14):
That
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:14):
You'll see in the world of, you know, federal prisons today or trials, whatever. Like
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:19):
It just - And, and, and everyday law enforcement.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:21):
Spiderweb. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:22):
We - That's pretty amazing. For years and years and years, uh, we were the polar opposite of what was the
norm in prisons at that time. Mm-hmm. Where people were being abused, they were being tortured. Uh,
like I said earlier, they, uh, officers were allowed to dictate what kind of punishment an inmate got for -
Yeah. A rules infraction.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:47):
Mm-hmm.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:48):Where the rules for the officers were as strict as the rules for the inmates.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:54):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:55):
They - No figure. They couldn't call them anything but by their number.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:25:58):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:25:59):
They, you know, anything that was, you know, shorty, fatty, uh, butchy. Yeah. Uh, they couldn't call them
by any type of nicknames. They couldn't. The officers and the inmates were forbidden to talk about
politics. Okay. Uh, so it, it, it, uh, no sc - the one that always cracked me up was the no scuffling of the
feet. Huh. I was never quite f - uh, that, that, that one's always been in the back of my mind is that was a
thing back in the early 1900s.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:26:29):
Yeah. Who knows? That should go, that could go on that, like, the thing out there of, like, weird laws
around the country. Like, if you go into, like, the weird laws in Florida, like, you can't walk your alligator
on a leash or something strange like that. It could be.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:26:40):
Uh, my favorite, my favorite weird law is the, uh, uh, Frankfurt, Kentucky. Okay. Back in the late 1800s,
early 1900s, they enacted a law that says that you can't walk around on Sunday with an ice cream cone in
your hip pocket.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:26:54):
Yeah, like, where did these come from? We can do a whole, we should do a whole episode on weird laws
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:26:59):
Across
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:27:00):
The
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:27:00):
Country
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:27:01):
And what we have here in Kansas and Missouri. That'd be really funny. <laugh>
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:27:03):
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:27:09):
Hmm. Huh. Who came up with that and thought, yes, let's go ahead and print that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:27:12):
Yeah. <laugh>
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:27:14):
Okay. So let's get into some of the most notorious people that are from, you know, not this generation. So
we can get into. Let's start with, um, Carl Pansram. I want your take on him. He, this is what I pulled on
this individual who spent time at, um, Leavenworth. He was quoted as the meanest man who ever lived.
Um, and he was the first to be executed in the United States. He was
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:27:40):
The first to have made executed at the United States Penitentiary at Leavenworth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:27:43):
There you go. And what he said, um, and this will tie back to some of the things that I mentioned before
that, um, you've been featured in. Uh, in my lifetime, I have murdered 21 human beings. I have
committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons. And last but not least, I have committed
sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings. For all these things, I am not in the least bit. Sorry, I
have, um, he has no remorse.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:28:08):
Yeah, he, he - That's what
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:28:08):
He was, he was
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:28:09):
Quoting. I have no conscience. No conscience. I do not believe in man, God, nor devil. I hate the whole
damn human race, including myself, and the only regret I have in life is that it has but one neck and I
cannot get my hands around it. I am rage personified. I mean - My, they have told me in my lifetime I
should reform myself. Well, I go and reform other people and my means of reforming them is to kill
them. Mm-hmm. My motto is to rob them all, rape them all, and kill them all.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:28:39):
What, insane. Insane. I mean, this guy's story. So I went down a rabbit trail in preparation for this episode.
I told you to go kind of watch the story and like what you, um, the story that you were telling. I think it
was the history detectives on PBS. But kind of give us on this episode your, your narrative on this
individual who is one of the most notorious in the US and spent time here in Leavenworth at the prison.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:29:04):
One of the things about Carl Panzaram is he, he's the epitome of a serial killer, but he's also the epitome
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:29:16):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:29:16):
And when you go back and you take a look at his writings, uh, his dictation on what was going on in
prisons in that era is just absolutely 100% spot on. The everyday life in a prison. The, um, torture and,
and, uh, things that you couldn't imagine even thinking about doing today in a correctional facility.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:29:46):
Right.
'Cause this is back in, let's see, he, so he ended up passing away in 1930.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:29:52):
So he was there in 1930. Early
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:29:54):
1900s. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:29:56):
And he had spent time in facilities starting And at the age of nine at the Minnesota School for Boys and
Red Wing - uh-huh. <affirmative>. And when you read into their history, they were brutal.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:30:07):
Really?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:30:08):
Uh, and a lot of those, uh, boys' homes and children's homes back then, because they had them for girls
too - uh-huh. <affirmative>. Uh, they were just as torturous and mean. Uh, when you go back and you
take a look at, uh, for example, uh, most ba- baseball aficionados, uh, know who Babe Ruth is. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. When you, he was raised in a boy's home and - Okay. Uh, the brutality that, uh, was
beseeched on him was with him for the rest of his life. And when you see - Interesting. And read about it,
the infamous, uh, case of where him and the manager got into a fist fight in the dugout during a game.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:30:49):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:30:50):
And when they went looking for him, they couldn't find him. And when they found him, he's down in a
boiler room, he's got both hands on a hot boiler, uh, saying, uh, idle hands are the devil's workshop. Oh
my
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:31:03):
Gosh, that's -Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:31:04):
And that was -
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:31:05):
That's why we call it childhood trauma, right?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:31:06):
Yeah. <laugh> The epitome
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:31:08):
Resurfacing.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:31:09):
And that was one of the reasons why he, uh, spent a lot of time and a lot of his earnings, uh, supplying
boy schools and girls schools with shoes and coats and stuff in the wintertime and, and, and, uh, it was all
spawned from his experiences as a child.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:31:27):
Yeah. Ugh. So Pans Ram, he went through that and then that just set the tone for the rest of his life
becoming the horrific serial killer - Yeah,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:31:38):
He. That
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:31:38):
He was.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:31:39):
He says it all when he says,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:31:42):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:31:43):
And he did. I mean, he, when he gets to Leavenworth, uh, Thomas Bruce White is there as the warden.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in a article written by, uh, about Thomas Bruce White, he said he had seen
a lot of, uh, notorio- notorious characters in his life. And he recognized Carl Panzaram when they first
walked him into the front door of the federal prison.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:32:08):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:32:09):
"I hate the whole damn human race.
"He knew that this guy was trouble.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:32:11):
Yeah.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:32:12):
And in their first meeting, inmates had to meet the warden. And in their first meeting, Panzeram tells
them,
"I'll kill the first SOB that crosses me.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:32:21):
Yeah.
"Just
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:32:22):
Leave me alone.
" And they probably
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:32:23):
Though he was joking, right? Just kind of
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:32:25):
Like - No, no. Thomas Bruce White took him serious.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:32:27):
He did. Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:32:29):
And he watched this guy maneuver through the penitentiary and he's only there several months before he,
uh, brutally murders the laundry for him and beats him to death with an iron bar. Yeah. And he chased an
officer through the, uh, yard and the officer was actually trying to get him lured towards a gun tower
where the officer could shoot him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And Panzeram had a foresight enough to
say,
"I know what he's doing.
" So he started, uh, hiding himself behind boxcars and made himself, uh, he
surrendered to officers trying to find him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Telling him, you know,
"I've done all
I can do today. I guess I'm yours.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:33:12):
Geez.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:33:13):
And when the, he gets to pri - when he gets to court and they're going on about what he had done over the
course of his life and the murder that he'd committed at the prison, uh, he literally stands up in court on
the day he's sentenced and tells, uh, when the judge says,
"Is there any words that you would like to say
before I pass sentence?" Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he stood up in court and looked at the judge and
he told him, he says,
"You people created me. It is your job to destroy me.
"Mindy Hargesheimer (00:33:50):
Wow. Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:33:52):
And the judge sentenced him to death by hanging.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:33:56):
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Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:33:57):
And, uh, he was executed in September of 1930.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:34:02):
Yep. First one.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:34:04):
And when he went to the gallows, he first refused to come out of, uh, the segregation building. And when
Thomas Bruce White walked in and told him and said,
"Hey, this is your show.
" Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>.
"Uh, it's time to go.
" And he says,
"I told you that I wanted no clergymen here at my
execution.
" Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
"You have the Catholic priest and the Protestant chaplain standing
out there. I want them gone. And I want them gone before I'll ever come out of here.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:34:32):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:34:34):
So he went out and told him to leave.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:34:36):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:34:37):
And when he came out of the building, mind you, he shackled from the feet to the hands. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. And he's got a, uh, straps around his arms to keep him from grabbing onto anything as he's
being executed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. He literally runs up the stairs to the top of the gallows and
gives a little bit of a, a tirade commentary. And he literally turns around and looks at the hangman and he
says,
"What's taking you so long?" Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:10):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:35:10):He says,
"I could kill a dozen men while you're screwing around.
" <laugh>.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:14):
Yeah. Uh, yeah, I believe it based on - Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:35:16):
The
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:17):
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Story of him. And going back to the documentary that we mentioned, like that, the spirit of hatred and
vengeance, like that, that's for sure a must watch. Yeah. With this guy's story.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:35:26):
And James Woods actually portrays Carl Panzaram. Okay.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:29):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:35:30):
In a, in a movie called Killer: A Journal of Murder. Oh,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:33):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:35:34):
And, and it's, you can find it on Amazon.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:36):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:35:37):
And they've actually released it in, in, uh, DVD form. So you can watch it through that format. Yeah.
And, and I mean, he, it's probably one of James Wood's accurate portrayals because, I mean, he is just
spot on.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:35:53):
Yeah. That's wild. Now he is the one. Let's see. Is he the one that, um, befriended the, um, the guy who
worked at the prison that he ended up, like, having all
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:05):
The notes? The one he's always portrayed Henry Lesser as working at the federal prison at Leavenworth -
Uh-huh <affirmative>. When actually he worked at the DC jail in asylum. Okay.Mindy Hargesheimer (00:36:15):
Yeah. DC.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:16):
And he started bringing Panzeram paper and pencil.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:36:21):
Yeah. And
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:22):
Having him write his story.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:36:23):
He was like,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:24):
"You have a
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:36:24):
Story to tell.
"
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:26):
And -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:36:26):
Document this. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:27):
Henry Lesser actually became a, uh, professor emeritus at San Diego State University. Uh-huh
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:36:35):
<affirmative>. And
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:36:36):
I've got a good friend of mine that, that was actually one of his students. Okay. And we've talked to him,
we've talked at length about Henry Lesser and, and what his thought patterns were of why you'd bring
pans ramp paper and pencil. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it, it was pretty much basically, he saw this
guy as a, uh, human encyclopedia of what prison life was like.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:01):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:02):Life on the road. And it was a story that needed to be told. Well,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:05):
And as you said, he was clearly a very intelligent man. Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:08):
And
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:08):
So he would be able to articulate that, document that in a way that maybe 99% of others wouldn't per se.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:13):
Yeah. And, and it's, it's a 40,000 word dictation that he wrote out. That's
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:20):
Wild.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:20):
And you can actually find it on the Uni- University of, uh, uh, San Diego. San Diego. Yeah. San Diego
State University.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:28):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:28):
Uh, it's on their website. You could pull it up and read it.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:32):
Yeah. And
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:32):
His whole take on, on the prison experience of that era - Yeah. Because he spent time in, in prisons in the
Midwest. He spent time in Sing Sing Prison. Okay.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:42):
He
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:42):
Was actually at Leavenworth previously. Oh yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:37:45):
Uh,Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:37:45):
He was at the United States Disciplinary Barracks, the military prison. Uh-huh. And, uh, his, all of his
experiences are written down and, and there for the world to see. And I mean, it, it's, it's spot on as to
what was going on in corrections at that point in time.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:38:03):
Yeah. Super fascinating. No doubt. Well, so that, okay, so that brings me to the next one that I wanted to
talk about. Iceberg Slim, a.k.a. Robert Beck, a notorious Chicago pimp turned author who spent time
serving a sentence for prostitution related crimes. So this guy also ended up becoming like writing scripts
for movies or authoring books. Is that right? He
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:38:25):
Started out authoring books once he got out of prison. Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:38:28):
<affirmative>.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:38:28):
And turned his life around.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:38:29):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:38:30):
And he became sort of the, uh, in the 1960s, they called them black exploitation movies. Yeah. Where
they're exploiting the pimp. Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:38:41):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:38:41):
Uh, and if you go back through and listen to, uh, individuals like Snoop Dogg, some of the early rappers
and stuff like that, they call him the king of the pimps.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:38:51):
Oh, side note, by the way. I had, um, I had a guy from Kansas City in here, Courtney, he's called, um, uh,
Big Court. He is, he started a streaming network called the OG Network with Ice T. And when I was
looking at what you were featured in or what you contributed to the Iceberg Slim Portrait of a Pimp, what,
Ice T was behind that as well. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is such a crazy tie of
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:39:14):
What IMindy Hargesheimer (00:39:15):
Just had in the studio. Um, talking about the OG Network and then the OG Network popped up with that
movie that you contributed to. So it was a fun, um, you know, tieback for me.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:39:24):
Yeah. I've done several different things over the course of time that, uh, laying groundwork and, and, and,
uh, I <laugh> I always shy away from saying expertise because, uh - You
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:39:38):
Can definitely say expertise here. That's why I have you here.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:39:41):
It, it, it's kind of one of those things that's when you start talking about prisons, uh, it's like the book Edge
of Lost when I did that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, the entire backstory of, uh, the prison atmosphere
in that book was all written by me and it, and, and working with the author was just amazing because
she's, she's actually an award-winning author and, and such.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:07):
Yeah. That
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:07):
It was kind of like, uh, wow, I put a fingerprint on something, you know - That's a life
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:13):
Achievement. That's a really cool
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:14):
Thing
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:15):
To check off your list. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:16):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:16):
Absolutely. You should be super proud of that. Yeah. Okay. So this guy, he's one of many, I think, that
were probably, um, in prison for prostitution related crimes, but he ended up - Well,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:26):
And most people don't understand the prostitution law is actually the Man Act.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:31):Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:31):
It's what got John Arthur Jack Johnson, the first black heavyweight champion of the world sent to prison.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:38):
Okay. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:39):
He was actually married to the woman. Uh, he was married to a white woman.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:42):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:43):
In a time when interracial relationships were, uh - Yeah. Taboo.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:47):
Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:48):
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Um, so he winds up spending a year and a day in federal prison at Leavenworth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:55):
For what?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:40:56):
Uh, he crossed state lines with his wife.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:40:59):
That's what he was in prison for. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:41:02):
And it was, uh, the law of the Man Act is crossing state lines for immoral purposes. Uh, and that law
actually landed, um, Chuck Berry in prison. Okay. Uh, so, uh, while Chuck Berry was in prison, he wrote
the song No Particular Place to Go.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:41:21):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:41:22):
So, um - That came outMindy Hargesheimer (00:41:24):
Of that?That
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:41:25):
Came out of that. <laugh>. But, uh, it, it got a lot of people caught up. Yeah. In, uh, that's pretty much
basically the white slavery law - uh-huh. <affirmative>. As far as prostitution goes. And that's what
they're sentenced under. And I mean, they're still sentencing people under it today. Really?
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:41:43):
Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:41:44):
Well, I mean, the international transportation of, of humans all over the world. Yeah. Children - Falling
under that. Women.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:41:57):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:41:58):
<affirmative>. Et cetera. It, it's, uh, un- unfortunate, but it's, it, it's, and, and it's horrific. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. The numbers that, that you see when you go through stuff like that, that - Sure. Uh, it, it's
still the same law that they punish people under today.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:42:17):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:42:17):
So.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:42:19):
Interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:42:20):
Yeah. It, it's. The, the international scene is just, it, it, it's taken on a life of its own and, and, and -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:42:27):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:42:28):
Uh, nobody should ever be subjected to anything like that ever. No
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:42:33):Kidding. Absolutely not. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. So let's move on to the next one, next one. Birdman,
Robert Stroud. So tell us what we need to know. Some fact checking on this because we were talking
about how the movie, you can talk about the movie and like the accuracy and his backstory.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:42:51):
The backstory is, is he left home very early in life. Mm-hmm. Early teenage years. And he's a, uh, dabbles
in prostitution in Michigan. Okay. He starts getting in trouble there. And he moves to Alaska or he's
running a brothel in Alaska in Janeau. Mm-hmm. And the book says that he was in love with this
particular prostitute when in all actuality he wasn't in love with her at all. Uh, the argument became the
bartender refused to pay for services. Mm-hmm. And Robert Stroud went down, purchased a pistol for
about three dollars. Walked up to the front door of the bar when the guy opened the door early that
morning, he shot him in the head and killed him.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:43:37):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:43:37):
So he was sent to McNeill Island, Washington.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:43:40):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:43:41):
And there, he attempted to murder another inmate for exposing an escape attempt that he was going to
pull off. Okay. So they sent him to Leavenworth and Robert Stroud's filed from the very beginning. Uh,
he was just a malcontent in prison, constantly in trouble. Mm-hmm. Uh, the story of him being in love,
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him marrying a woman by proxy later in life, uh, is hiding the backstory that he was gay. Okay. He was a,
uh, into writing stories explicitly about pedophilia.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:44:27):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:44:28):
He was not the kind story. It
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:44:30):
Seems
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:44:31):
More common
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:44:31):
Than most people might assume. Right.Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:44:33):
Especially
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:44:34):
Hearing these stories like going back to Panzeram and, you know, what he did too. So.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:44:38):
Yeah. He's not the kindly individual that the book makes him out to be. Okay. And the book is a total
work of fiction. Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:44:49):
In
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:44:49):
A early 1960s, late 1950s Life Magazine article. Mm-hmm. James V . Bennett, the director of the Bureau
of Prisons at the time, tells Life Magazine that at no time did he ever contact Robert Stroud. He never
wrote him. He never had a face-to-face visit with him. Mm-hmm. Uh, all of the, uh, things that were
written about him in the book, Birdman of Alcatraz, are derived from other stories, newspaper articles and
such that sort of glorified the individual. Yeah. Robert Stroud never, uh, he was not a maid scientist. Mm
hmm. His, uh, book, Stroud's book on birds diseases - Uh-huh
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:45:33):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:45:33):
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Was all derived and plagiarized from a book that was released in Paris, France a couple of years earlier.
Okay. Um, the experiments that he conducted on birds at Leavenworth would now be considered animal
cruelty.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:45:48):
Yeah. Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong. I think what I saw is that, I mean, he was obviously like more
maniacal maybe some, than some others, but he ended up finding birds like on the grounds of the prison.
And take the story from there of how he got the name and developed this whole kind of persona at
Leavenworth.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:05):
He, back in that era, Leavenworth and the federal prison system were still in their infancy.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:12):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:14):
And one of the biggest issues became overcrowded prisons. Leavenworth was actually built and
constructed to house anywhere from 15 to 1800 inmates. Well, in its highest level, they had 3,500 to
4,000 -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:27):
Whoa. Inside
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:28):
The walls of the prison.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:29):
How?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:30):
Uh, it's just -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:32):
Doubling down? Pretty
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:34):
Much basically anybody that got sentenced to federal prison, we're sending you to Leavenworth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:39):
We'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:40):
And we'll figure it out from there. Well -
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:42):
Wow. They
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:44):
Get up to these massive amounts of population. Mm-hmm. So it's, we gotta find something for criminals
to do. Yeah. Because the old adage in corrections says, if you don't find them something to do, they're
gonna find something to do. Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:46:58):
And
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:46:58):
Usually what they find to do is not beneficial to the gated community in which they live. Sure. So it allspawned from, uh, he was doing all these little experiments that, that he claimed was helping birds and et
cetera and so on. Mm-hmm. And his part of the bird diseases book, he did find a cure for a common
disease at canaries by accident. Really?
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:47:30):
With
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:47:30):
His experiments.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:47:31):
Interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:47:32):
Uh, but I mean, his experiments included injecting them with gasoline. Uh -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:47:38):
So he
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:47:39):
Brings
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:47:39):
These birds into his cell. Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:47:41):
And
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:47:41):
Then he's got, he's doing whatever he's doing and they're allowing him to do
this. Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:47:44):
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Yes. Because
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:47:45):
There was nothing at the time that was saying that he shouldn't legally or, I don't know, um, cleanliness,
anything - Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:47:53):
To go with that. And that was one of the reasons why he was actually sent to Alcatraz is because, uh,
they, he was very unkept. Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:03):He
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:03):
Had bird droppings all over his cell. Right.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:06):
Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:07):
Canaries just flying everywhere. Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:09):
In
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:09):
His cell. He - And cutting
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:11):
Them open or doing whatever
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:13):
He's
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:13):
Doing. Yeah. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:14):
He would leave the carcasses laying on the floor and, and it, it was, it got to the point to where they were,
and he was receiving letters and publicity at the time. And it was just getting out of control. And then
when they went and actually physically started taking his cell apart, they discovered he'd been making
180 proof alcohol.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:35):
While he was at it.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:36):
While he was at it. Oh
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:37):
My gosh. So -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:38):
Things youMindy Hargesheimer (00:48:39):
Wouldn't think would be possible. Yeah. Oh
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:41):
Yeah. So
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:41):
He got the nickname at Leavenworth. Mm-hmm. Then
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:44):
He
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:44):
Was transferred to Alcatraz. And then the movie was made about him and his experience. Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:49):
At
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:49):
Alcatraz. Is that correct?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:50):
And the movie is so- So it
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:52):
Completely dismissed the whole origin of,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:55):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:55):
Him
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:56):
Being there. And the movie is so off base.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:48:58):
Yeah. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:48:59):
Like during the 1946 riot, he didn't crawl under gunfire in order to close the closed cells. Yeah. Uh, to
keep guys safe or stuff like that because he was housed in the hospital. It was aMindy Hargesheimer (00:49:12):
Bit traumatized.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:49:14):
Yeah. The inmate population hated Stroud with a passion because he wasn't a part of them. He was just
one of these that was a malcontent with whoever he, uh, came across. And on the day that he actually
murdered Andrew Turner in 1914 in the dining room at Leavenworth. Mm-hmm.
(00:49:33):
The story in the book says that his mother had tried to visit him and she was turned away. Well, it was
actually his brother Marcus. Okay. And he had, Stroud was an obsessive individual. And in that era, you
were allowed to leave food and stuff - uh-huh. For the inmates. Well, his brother had brought him a bunch
of candy and, and other things. And Stroud got all hyped up on sugar. Yeah. And when he went to the
dining room the evening before, uh, he was sitting there and he was talking out loud and was all hyped up
on sugar. And, uh, the officer at the time, Turner, walked over to him. And at that point in time, when you
walked over to an inmate for a disciplinary reason, you would just walk over and look at the individual
and go,
"Number.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:50:21):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:50:24):
Well, Stroud being the individual that he was, the inmate started messing with him about Turner being a
headbuster. Mm-hmm. About Turner having a reputation at, at Atlanta before he transferred to
Leavenworth and so on and so forth. And Stroud, uh, was in the dining room the next morning or next
afternoon for the noon meal. And he raised his hand to go to the restroom. Mm-hmm. Well, when he gets
out into the aisle, he starts walking towards Turner. Mm-hmm. And he tells Turner, uh, did you shoot me?
Meaning, did you write a report on me? Mm-hmm. And he says,
"I demand an answer.
" And Turner's
telling him to sit back down.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:51:06):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:51:07):
Well, as he approaches, he pulls a case knife out of his pocket. Mm-hmm. And stabs him and literally
pinpoint accuracy, severs the lower artery in Turner's heart.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:51:20):
Wow.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:51:21):
And Turner's dead bef - or, uh, yeah, Turner's dead before he hits the floor.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:51:25):Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:51:27):
And when, uh, the captain of the guard approaches him, he throws down his knife and they just walked to
63. He had no malice, no remorse - Yeah. For what he had done. He later - So it's the common
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:51:42):
Theme there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:51:43):
He later writes his father that, uh, he's being held, uh, for an officer will say had an affliction of the heart.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:51:56):
Mm. Anyway,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:51:57):
They're holding me for trial. Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:51:58):
Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:52:00):
I'll close now for lack of better news. Yeah. Uh, he's no, he's not remorseful about anything. There's just,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:52:06):
Yeah. There's nothing to it. It's just kind of nonchalant.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:52:09):
Yeah. And some of the officers that I talked to, uh, I had talked to officers that had been there in the
1930s when I first started. Yeah,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:52:17):
What did they say? And
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:52:19):
They talked about how just unruly this individual was and that, uh, he was maintained in seg.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:52:28):
Mm-hmm.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:52:29):
Because they just couldn't do anything with him. Yeah. The inmates didn't like him. Mm-hmm. He wasn'ta. In the book, he describes that, uh, at a mo - at, at, at just one wave of the hand in the dining room would
have been in pandemonium and more officers would have died. Yeah. Uh, that's not the case because the
inmates didn't like him. If anybody would have wound up dead, it would have been him.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:52:49):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:52:50):
So it, it's, h- his, his whole story is just a fictitional -
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:52:54):
Is there, what is the alternative then to watching that which is fic - which is fiction? Like what, I mean,
not really fiction, but ends up being more fictional. Is there another thing to watch that represents him
better or book within anything that you've written? Anything else that would be the better place to go?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:53:10):
His legacy has been maintained pretty much by his family. Okay. Uh, all of his writings and stuff that he
had sent out, uh, are all held in a, uh, bank in Illinois. Interesting.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:53:27):
That
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:53:28):
Is closed down and the family actually bought it. Okay. And they - So that's
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:53:32):
Held tight.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:53:34):
Uh, one of the things that, uh, there's a book out there called The House of Whispering Hate. Okay. Uh,
it's probably by far the best book I've ever written or ever seen written - uh-huh.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:53:48):
About
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:53:48):
Leavenworth. Okay.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:53:49):
Because
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:53:50):
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and pull the inmate's files - Yeah. That he talks about in that book. Mm-hmm. And it's, it, it's all there in
black and white. Everything that he's writing - Okay. About that. And his first day in population, the
author,
(00:54:09):
He describes the laundry foreman being brought through the rear quarter on the way to the hospital after
he's bludgeoned to death by Carl Panzaram. Mm-hmm. And he talks a little bit about the birdman of
Alcatraz or Leavenworth at that point. And, uh, he sort of lays it all out in the book that Stroud was not
the individual that everybody, uh, supposed he was. A- and Stroud himself comes up for parole at, when
he has moved out of Alcatraz. When Alcatraz is closed down, he's sent to the, uh, medical facility at
Springfield, Illinois, or Springfield, Missouri. Okay. And he goes before the parole board and they ask
him,
"Why after all these years do you think you should be released? And why do you want to be
released?" And his remarks to that question were,
"I have so little time left and there's so many people left
in the world for me to kill.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:18):
Somehow knew that was coming.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:55:20):
And he - Yeah. Bragged about when I die, my story will be front page news all over the world. Ugh.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:28):
Well,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:55:28):
Unfortunately for him - Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:31):
Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:55:32):
He died on the same day that JFK was assassinated and his story was relegated to, uh, not appearing in the
papers at all to back page little blurbs about - Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:46):
Robert
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:55:47):
Stroud, Birdman of Alcatraz, subject dies overnight in Springfield.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:53):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:55:53):
And -
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Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:54):
Interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:55:55):
So he didn't get his wish on that part. Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:55:58):
But here we are talking about him too. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:56:00):
There's that. I mean, 100 years later, here we are. Yeah,
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:56:04):
100 years later. Speaking of that, so there are other movies that Leavenworth has been featured in. The
Last Castle, 2001, and then, oh, and then Burban of Alcatraz. So those are like two. Are there any other
places that Leavenworth is featured in any movies? I
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:56:19):
Mean, you listen to, uh, there's an episode of Mash where - Okay.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:56:23):
They
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:56:23):
Tell Hawkeye,
"We're gonna send you to Leavenworth.
" Got
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:56:26):
It. <laugh>
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:56:26):
Uh, the TV show Jag. Mm-hmm. Although, which was really kinda funny because, uh, they would say,
"We're going to Leavenworth,
" and in a couple episodes, they actually show the front - Oh, really. Facade
of the federal prison and not the military prison.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:56:39):
Interesting. Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:56:40):
So it, it's kind of, that's kind of funny. The joys
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:56:43):
Of, uh, how
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TV
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:56:44):
And movies are made. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:56:45):
And, and we're even, uh, mentioned in the, uh, Groucho Marx movie, uh, Duck Soup. Uh-huh. Where he
makes the comment, uh, in court, uh, I would rather spend a five and diamond Woolworth than a five and
diamond Leavenworth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:57:04):
Okay. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:57:05):
So the, the. And Gene Autry wrote a song called Leven Months in Leavenworth. Okay.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:57:10):
Uh -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:57:11):
There's a lot
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:57:11):
Out there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:57:12):
George Kent, uh, the song always liked Leavenworth and, and just totally, you know, it, the legacy and
legend of Leavenworth is derived - Yeah. Through different genres and, and, and types of media that were
out there and, and everybody knows. And, and that's one of the things that I kinda explain to people of
why people have this curiosity of, of wanting to know, uh, and tour facilities is that it's the unknown of
what life is actually like behind a 40 foot wall. And Leavenworth's wall is 40 feet tall and 40 feet into the
ground.
Mindy Hargesheimer (00:57:54):
Wow. Yeah. What are some other fun facts to know about that? Like, that's interesting to know. So
obviously for them to not escape. Um, but I wanna hear more about your experience working there. And
give us some, like, some stories. Give us some visuals. Give us some, like, bring us into your experience
there as much as possible from some of the things that you witnessed and what it was like in there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:58:17):
The institution itself is, is, is, is a dichotomy of, of, of the rest of the world. Yeah. We've had international
criminals there. We've had gang members, gang leaders, the Aryan Brotherhood, uh, all of their, uh -
TommyMindy Hargesheimer (00:58:35):
Silverstein, right?
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (00:58:36):
Tommy Silverstein, uh, Barry Mills. Mm-hmm. And others were there. The Hell's Angels were there,
most notably. Uh,
(00:58:46):
The leadership of the Hells Angels, the Texas Syndicate. Uh, Oscar Lopez was the leader of the FALN.
Okay. Uh, one of the stories that, and one of the experiences I had was back in the, the 1980s, the weather
underground in the FALN came up with a, uh, idea that they were gonna break Oscar Lopez out of prison.
Mm-hmm. And they, they walk us into a, walk me and another officer into a briefing the day before and
tell us, it starts out, the guy looks at me, he's a US Marshal, and he says,
"Okay, this assignment, you can
back out of it if you want to, but you can't say anything about it.
" Hmm.
"Uh, we know that your brother
in-law works at the Leavenworth Post Office downtown.
" And I said,
"Yeah, and that has to do with
what?" Mm-hmm. Well, the conspiracy is, is that they were going to blow up the downtown post office in
order to tie up local law enforcement and firefighters and so on and so forth.
(00:59:52):
So when they actually assaulted the prison, they were gonna blow up the rear gate of the prison to gain
access. And And break Oscar Lopez out. Well, my job and the other officer, uh, we sat out in a grassy
field. Uh, they took us out there before sunup - Uh-huh <affirmative>. And come and got us as nightfall
was breaking on that particular day. And our only job was is if anybody tried to assault, uh, the rear gate,
we were to lay down fire. Yeah. And we were out there, uh, with handguns and rifles and - uh-huh.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:00:32):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:00:32):
Copious amounts of ammunition and -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:00:34):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:00:34):
So on and so forth. And that was our job. We were, we were the two that was going to defend the rear
gate at all costs. Right. So, and the FBI and US Marshal Service had actually broke that case before it
actually happened.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:00:51):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:00:52):
But they didn't know how far along it got -Mindy Hargesheimer (01:00:55):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:00:55):
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Before. And had they actually gained explosives and stuff, were they gonna blow up the rear gate? So
that's why we were out there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:01:01):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:01:02):
Uh, they, uh -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:01:07):
So the whole thing was like foiled or whatever. It didn't happen?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:01:10):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:01:10):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:01:11):
They, so we
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:01:14):
Were you scared? Were you like, this is just a day in the job that I needed, needed to be prepared for
someday?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:01:20):
It was just another day at work. Uh, you know, when you get into corrections, you kind of <laugh>, you
kind of gain this feeling of, uh, well, here I am. <laugh> I'm
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:01:37):
Sure.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:01:37):
It, it's, uh, a job you don't see every day. It's something, like I said earlier, it, it, almost hourly you find
something that makes you go,
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:01:46):Hmm. Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:01:47):
And, and the story of like, uh, Russell Buffalino and, and the mafia members that are there at the time,
um, I'm getting ready to break them out for lunch out of a cell house. And Russell Buffalino's standing
there and just off the top of my head, I look at him and I go,
"So what did you do with Jimmy Hoffa?"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:02:08):
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Yeah. Just lay it out there.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:02:11):
And all of the mafia members standing there at the time were like,
You can't ask that. <laugh> Uh, too late I did.
"You cannot ask the old man dad.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:02:19):
Oh yes, I can.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:02:20):
And he just kind of looked at me and stared me down. And, uh, as I break the unit out for lunch, he's
walking past me. And of course it's, we call it the old man shuffle. He's got a cane and he's kind of
shuffling his feet and - uh-huh. <affirmative>. Moving towards me. And as he goes past me, he grabs me
off the shirt sleeve and he pulls me over to him and he says,
"We cremated that SOB alive and just
walked off.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:02:42):
And there you go. <laugh>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:02:43):
And it was like -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:02:44):
And seen. <laugh>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:02:45):
Well, okay.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:02:47):
Thank you so much.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:02:47):
Mystery solved. <laugh>.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:02:49):But that's so crazy that like you were engaged in that kind of interaction.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:02:53):
Yeah. And, and I, I am, I've always been the type of individual that, that, uh, it, it's, I call it a quirk, I
guess. I, I just, I'll, I'll look at. I, I used to do this to my son. I'd look at him and go,
"So how did that work
out for you?"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:11):
Uh-huh <affirmative>.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:12):
You know?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:12):
Yeah. <laugh>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:13):
And, and the rest of the story is -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:15):
Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:16):
And, and it, it, inmates, uh, have their own culture, their own feel about things. There's a hierarchy to
inmates. There's always a shot caller inside the prison.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:29):
How does that come to be? You just, there are just certain people that work their way up the, the
hierarchy because of their -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:35):
Correct.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:36):
Ego or -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:37):
Uh, actually there - What, what
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:38):
They did to get in there?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:39):What they did to get in there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:03:41):
Yeah. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:03:42):
There used to be a TV series that they did called in the line of duty that would talk about, uh, situations
that happened. Uh, one of them involved, uh, individual that was part of the Posse Comatatis group in
Minnesota and Iowa and in that part of the world. Uh, Yori Call, which was the son of Gordon Call. Mm
hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, they killed two, uh, US Marshals on the side of the road. And Yori Call was
considered a political prisoner. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you had the group, The Order, that
killed the, uh, disc jockey out in Boulder, Colorado. Okay. They had been arguing, um, back and forth.
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The disc jockey was a Jewish man. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they were antis - anti-Semitic group.
And they rolled up in front of his house one night and just literally lit him up.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:04:39):
Geez.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:04:40):
As he got out of his car, they got sentenced. They were all sent to Leavenworth. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. And, uh, Bruce Pierce was the leader. And we were transporting the order from
Leavenworth to Springfield, which was going to be picked up by Springfield staff and taken to Marion.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And as we're getting them ready to move that morning, Bruce Pierce looks at
me and he goes, um, Mr. LaMaster, he says,
"I just want to say that, uh, my group is going to overtake
this caravan sometime on the way to Springfield. And when they pull your cold dead body out of the van,
don't take it personal. It's just business.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:05:23):
Noted.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:05:24):
And I was like,
"Okay.
" What? So when I got in the van, I had a 30 caliber carbine in the van. I jacked
around in the chamber, stuck it through the screen, pointed at him, and I said,
"Uh, if anybody looks like
they're gonna take over this caravan, uh, my first shot's, uh, probably gonna go through your head.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:05:40):
Bam. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:05:42):
Yeah. So - How'd
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:05:43):
ThatKenneth M. LaMaster (01:05:43):
Go over? Make it personal when they pull your cold dead body out of the van. Yeah, there
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:05:46):
You
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:05:47):
Go. Because it's just business. <laugh>.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:05:49):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I love it.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:05:51):
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So it, it's, there, there, there's a demeanor to it and, and, and, uh, some of the things that, that actually
witnessed to, uh, murders, assaults. Uh, I can't tell you how many assaults I've seen fighting and - Yeah.
Uh, one of the best fights I ever seen was between two old inmates that were heavyset smokers at the time
because you could smoke in prison at that point in time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I hear this noise.
I'm in my office doing paperwork. And I'm like,
"What is that?"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:06:27):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:06:28):
So I walk out of my office and there's a TV room like two doors down. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I walk
over and these two guys are, uh, they're calling it a fight. It wasn't much of a fight, but I'm standing there
and my number two officers come running down the gallery. He's gonna push the body alarm. They're
like,
"Hold on a minute.
" Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And these guys, and one of them goes and picks up a
chair. And I look at him and put it down. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he puts the chair down. By the
time he sets it down, he flops in another chair and the other guy flops in a chair and one of them looks at
me and he says,
"Are you ever gonna call for help?"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:03):
Oh my gosh. <laugh>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:05):
I said,
"Are you guys done?"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:06):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:07):
And,
"Yeah.
" I was like,
"Okay.
" So I call down and I tell the lieutenant,
"I just need two escorts to escorttwo guys that were fighting.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:15):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:15):
Uh, and they were like,
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:18):
They didn't get much accomplished in that fight.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:20):
I don't need somebody getting hurt.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:22):
Yeah.
"You had a fight. It's two old guys.
"
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:23):
Because when the call goes out and at Leavenworth, uh, it, you, you could go from one of the mildest
days ever to within seconds, something going on. And it would generally start out controlled all radio
units, officer needs assistance, a cell house. Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:46):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:47):
And- And you
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:48):
Have A, B, C, and D.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:50):
A, B, C, and D.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:07:50):
Right. Like the
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:07:51):
Corners. Uh, building 63 was a segregation building that was originally built. And then it, that was
replaced in March of the late 1980s. Okay. By a newer facility that was put on what used to be the old
baseball grounds. Okay. Um, so the, the, the dynamics of the prison, uh, and where it actually changed
was when they started renovations of the cell houses, they actually added this, uh, newfound thing called
air conditioning.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:08:23):
What a concept.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:08:24):
And the demeanor of the institution just dropped overnight.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:08:28):
Really?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:08:29):
It went from -
'Cause
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:08:30):
That was just making people spiral. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:08:32):
Like they
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:08:32):
Were just becoming so irate
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:08:34):
And acting on it. Because it, you know, and, and not to take away from. There's a lot of people out there
that think the book called The Hot House is a good book. It's really not. <laugh> Uh, it's not very accurate
at all.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:08:50):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:08:50):
Uh, a depiction of the institution at that period of time. And at nowhere in the institution's history has it
ever been referred to as the hot house.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:02):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:02):
It's always been the big house, the big L.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:06):
Yeah. Uh,Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:08):
And things like that. It's never been known as the hot house ever. Yeah. But the one thing that he does get
correct in the book is the old cell houses, uh, when you're in one of those old cell houses, particularly in
the top of the cell house, which when I first got there, take a cell house for example. Mm-hmm. A cell
house is two and a half city blocks long.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:30):
Mm-hmm. Wow.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:31):
Five galleries high.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:33):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:35):
Cells that hold eight to 12 inmates.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:37):
Geez.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:39):
There was an officer for each floor, a number one officer. And you were instructed never do anything
alone -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:49):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:50):
In that cell house.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:51):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:52):
Because -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:53):
So dangerous.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:53):
When you get into 300 cells holding eight to 12 inmates -Mindy Hargesheimer (01:09:57):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:09:59):
The population greatly outnumbers you.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:10:01):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:10:04):
So it was, you know, the first assault that I seen in that cell house was in that cell house. And it was on
Super Bowl Sunday. Okay. <laugh> And in your training, they tell you that 99.9% of the time, anytime
you have an assault, inmates will move away from it.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:10:23):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:10:23):
To get away from it so they don't become a part of it.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:10:26):
Sure. Uh,
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:10:27):
Super Bowl Sunday, this inmate starts stabbing another inmate. I'm on the third floor with another officer.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:10:35):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:10:35):
Looking down on top of it when it starts.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:10:38):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:10:40):
They have a cutoff middle stairwell. In the old days, the bigger cell houses, the inmates traversed the cell
house by the middle stairwell. The front stairwell was for officers only. Okay. So I'm going down the
middle stairwell and there's this throng of inmates rushing to watch.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:11:00):
Mm-hmm.Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:11:02):
And as I come around the cutoff, the individual that stabbed this guy, I bump into him with a knife.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:11:10):
Oh, geez.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:11:12):
And I back him off.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:11:14):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:11:15):
And a good friend of mine by the name of Paul Racine actually walks up on him and says,
"Don't make
this any worse than it already is.
" And one of the things that differs in, in corrections is into, uh, other
lines of law enforcement, and I'm not trying to take away from street police because they're a wonderful
group of individuals, 99.9% of them. It's the 2% that make the rest of the cops look bad. In a prison
environment, you don't have a gun. You don't have pepper spray at that time. You don't have. We didn't
even carry handcuffs.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:11:52):
Okay. Because of them being able to access it off of you?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:11:56):
Correct.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:11:57):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:11:58):
And it was one of those situations where, uh, we were actually diffusing situations, not knowing exactly
what we were doing. Yeah. Or what it was called. But we would stand there and talk it out at times
saying,
"Hey, you know what? You don't want to make this any worse than it already is.
" Yeah. And most
of the time, uh, you didn't have to fight or scuffle with these people. Because one of the things that. I
mean, when you've got 800 inmates in a cell house or 300 inmates in a cell house, you don't know. Sure.
There's factors there that, you know, if I get in a physical altercation with this guy, are the 50 guys
standing behind me gonna jump me?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:12:48):
Oh, that's terrifying.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:12:49):
So you kinda gotta talk this through -Mindy Hargesheimer (01:12:52):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:12:52):
A little bit.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:12:53):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:12:54):
So it, it's kinda one of those that, that, uh, if you don't know how to talk -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:13:01):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:13:01):
If you're meeked mild mannered, probably corrections is not your forte.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:13:06):
Not your career path. So how, like, looking back at your 30, 31 years there, how would you describe
yourself working as a correctional officer in the beginning or just working there in general in the
beginning by the time you left? Like how much did you change or how did your outlook change? Or like
how would you, how would you describe that evolution after three decades working there?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:13:30):
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One of the things that, that, that definitely, and it's still today, um, my head is constantly on a swivel. Mm.
Um, I've always been a kinesthetic type of person. And kinesthetic type of people are most likely though
of as ADHD. Okay. When in all actuality, they know everything that's going on around them.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:13:58):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:13:58):
They know that, you know, they see things that, that other people don't see.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:14:04):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:14:05):
And I've always been that type of person. Mm-hmm. And corrections sort of increased that. Uh, I don't gointo a public place. I don't, I know everything that's going on around me.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:14:20):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:14:20):
Very aware. I'm very aware of, uh, of situational awareness.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:14:25):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:14:28):
I will talk to individuals. I've been trained to fight. I've been trained in self-defense. Mm-hmm. Riot
control. Uh, part of my career, the very early part of my career, the special operations response team, uh,
ideas were created at military prison at Fort Leavenworth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:14:49):
Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:14:50):
And they have spawned into corrections all over the world.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:14:53):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:14:54):
So, uh, we used to call ourselves the crash test dummies.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:14:57):
Okay.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:14:58):
Uh, in the military when you come up with an idea for new training, it's like,
"Hey, that's a good idea. We
can't fund it right now.
" Yeah. So, uh, here we are, a group of individuals that are taking self-defense
from a, a former Marine, uh, recon ranger that was trained by the, uh, Korean Rock Army - Jesus. In self
defense. Uh, were doing riot control with broomsticks and, and - Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:24):
Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:15:25):
Discarded catcher's gear that they were gonna throw away -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:28):Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:15:28):
Uh, in the trash and, and cell extractions and firefighting and, and so on and so forth. So it's kinda like,
you know, <laugh> it, it, it's, it's an interesting thing to do. Uh,
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:40):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:15:41):
But yeah, and, and - Something
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:42):
Most people will not do in their lives. <laugh>
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:15:44):
Yeah. It, it's, uh, getting, don't dress your kids up in, in, in catcher's gear and have them beat each other
with broomsticks. It's
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:51):
It's not advised.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:15:52):
Yeah. Don't
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:53):
Try this at home.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:15:54):
So it, it, it's, uh, a training and I've done crime scene photography and, and - Oh, really?
Um, Mindy Hargesheimer (01:15:59):
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Now,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:16:01):
The biggest difference in crime scene photography and re- regular photography -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:16:05):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:16:05):
<affirmative>. Is, uh, my subjects become pre-posed.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:16:08):
Mm. I like that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:16:09):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:16:10):
Clever.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:16:10):
I don't have to tell them to smile or, you know, sit up straight or whatever.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:16:13):
A little more efficient in that shoot.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:16:16):
Um, definitely been involved in, in, in several homicides.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:16:22):
Involved how?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:16:23):
Uh, responding to the situation at hand. And one of the things I always describe to people is, is think
about it. Uh, police officers on the street arrive to a scene, a murder scene. They could be there within
minutes. They could be there within hours, days, weeks, months, years. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh,
and that's not taking away from anything that they see in their daily operations as well, because they see
some horrific things as well. Yeah. Uh, so I'm not trying to downplay their part, but the big difference
between a police officer on the street and a police, uh, and a correctional officer inside a facility, we
arrive on the scene as it's actually happening.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:17:09):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:17:11):
'Cause you're right there.
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And we've gone back over video once cameras became. And I'm actually on video of the first homicide in
Leavenworth ever captured on -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:17:23):
Really.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:17:24):
Camera.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:17:25):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:17:26):
And, uh, it started out, the individual was sent to tell the guy to turn a radio down. And the guy
disrespected this guy and he wanted to blood in with the Aryan Brotherhood. Mm. Mm-hmm. And that
was how he gained his bones and he started stabbing this individual and he's on top of him. And I'm
actually the first officer that's there because I was in the main corridor when it happened. Okay. And I get
there and literally come in the door, make a right, and I'm, it's right here. Yeah. And he's straddled this
guy stabbing him multiple times. And like I said, at that point in time, we don't carry clubs, we don't carry
mace, we don't carry handcuffs. We're -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:11):
What do you do? Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:18:12):
Find the first - Or what did you do? First, find the first thing he could find to wrap it around his head.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:17):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:18:17):
Which unfortunately, there was nothing there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:19):
Mm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:18:20):
So we're trying to shove him off this guy and yell at him and everything else. Mm-hmm. And the last
thing he does is, is he just looks up and he goes,
"Die, you die.
" Mm-hmm. And he shoves the shank so
hard into the guy's chest, he actually breaks a piece of tile on the floor underneath of him.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:38):
Oh my gosh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:18:40):
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And he jumps up. And of course we've got a white supremacist here.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:44):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:18:44):The lieutenant on duty at the time is black.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:47):
Mm. Great.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:18:49):
And the lieutenant is the only guy that's carrying handcuffs. <laugh> And why he did this? He looks at
him and then there's no gonna put handcuffs on me.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:18:59):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:19:00):
Mr. LaMaster will handcuff me.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:19:02):
Oh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:19:03):
And I'm kinda like, I didn't know this inmate knew about who I was.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:19:05):
Right. Yeah. Interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:19:07):
And I cuffed him up and took him away and -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:19:11):
Wow.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:19:11):
Um, the last murder that I saw, uh, happen was actually still an unsolved murder today. Really? Uh, the
individual was a drug lord out of Oakland, California -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:19:25):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:19:26):
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By the name of Felix Mitchell.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:19:28):
Okay. Uh,Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:19:30):
Felix Mitchell was, uh, sent to Leavenworth, uh, as a kingpin in a drug operation in the Oakland Bay
Area, California. Mm-hmm. He gets to Leavenworth, and the story's always been circulated that he was
killed over $7 worth of fruit on a transistor radio. Uh, the other backstory was is, is that he, uh, went into
the Morris Science Temple meeting and told the head of the Morris Science Temple that his days of
running Leavenworth were over, that his crew was on their way and they was gonna take control of
Leavenworth. And it was a disrespect thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I actually was in the hospital with the
individual, we first got him to the institution hospital. I'm bagging his clothes for evidence. Mm-hmm.
Uh, counting stab wounds and, and such. And actually, when I got to, uh, the downtown hospital, they
were trying to get this guy into surgery to save his life.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:20:31):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:20:31):
And they started taking everybody's blood pressure.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:20:34):
Oh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:20:34):
In the emergency room.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:20:36):
Why?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:20:38):
To find out if somebody was not keyed up to the point to where - Oh. They would pass out and, and
become an issue that they had to deal with while in surgery.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:20:48):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:20:48):
Well, yours truly. <laugh> Uh, my blood pressure was normal.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:20:53):
Mm-hmm. So you're the designated.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:20:56):
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They took my blood pressure four or five times with different cups. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, I was the
first one to go into surgery with them until I was relieved after they came out of surgery. Yeah. But, uh, Iwas a winner because my blood pressure was normal.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:21:14):
You just, you, you just acclimated to that, I would assume.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:21:17):
Yeah, it, it's, it's - Your blood pressure wouldn't
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:21:18):
Even spike because this is what you were doing day to day.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:21:20):
They. <laugh> One of the reputations that I had, uh, I actually was, uh, one of my, I don't know if you
wanna call it an award or recognition type things was, uh, directing staff in an emergency situation. Mm
hmm. And the lieutenant, uh, even commented that, uh, he had never seen somebody so calm, cool and
collected.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:21:51):
Yeah. That was like your gift.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:21:52):
When all hell had broke loose.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:21:54):
Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:21:56):
So it, it's kind of like, <laugh> I don't know. You're
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:00):
Like, I don't know why I was given this, but -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:22:01):
Yeah, I don't know why.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:03):
I'm your guy. Did you ever, ever have a moment where you were terrified for your life?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:22:07):
Uh, I was stabbed at the military prison. Uh, the first month I went to work there. Oh,
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:14):
Welcome to
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The job. Uh, yeah. Welcome to the job.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:17):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:22:18):
I got all the hard things out of the way. Sure. Very short order, so -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:22):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:22:22):
Three right in. Sort of set the theme for the rest of my life. <laugh> Uh, the, the guy, uh, we were clearing
the dining room and back in that facility at that time, the inmates would come in, the last inmate to come
in and go through the chow line.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:42):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:22:42):
From that point when he sat down and started eating was 20 minutes.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:22:45):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:22:47):
Then we started clearing the dining room. And we would clear the dining room from what we call the
front to the back to where the inmates went out. I'm clearing the dining room. I'm telling guys, time to go,
time to go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go. Mm-hmm. And this guy looks at me and he says,
"You best
be cool around me.
" I said,
"Excuse me.
" Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:07):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:08):
And he says,
"I told you you need to be cool around me.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:10):
Mm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:12):
And I was like,
"It's time to go.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:16):
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Who are you? Tell me more.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:17):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:18):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:19):
And he, uh, said a few things that I won't say here. <laugh>
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:27):
Feel free. <laugh>
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:30):
I don't wanna make mom at home plush. <laugh> Um, but the inmates all wore ID badges.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:37):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:38):
And I told the individual, I said,
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:41):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:42):
He jumps up. And all I saw when he jumps up from the table was something shiny in his hand.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:49):
Mm-hmm. Knife?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:52):
And it turned out to be he had taken a, back then we were, we were still using steel table knives.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:23:59):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:23:59):
And he had actually smuggled one out of the kitchen.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:24:04):
Mm-hmm.
"Give me your badge.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:24:04):
And brought it back in with him, but he had honed it down to a point because -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:24:09):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:24:10):
The knives we used were like typical butter knives that you use at home every day.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:24:14):
Sure.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:24:14):
And all I recognized was, is that it was shiny. And he had raised his hand above his head. Mm-hmm. And
my first maneuver was, is I stuck my arm straight up and he went straight down my arm. Or straight up
my arm. And, um, I'm looking up and he's got me in a triangle corner. Uh-huh <affirmative>. He keeps
cutting me off. And I'm looking up. And we didn't carry body arms. We didn't carry radios. We didn't
carry anything in the military at that point in time. Mm-hmm. And I'm looking up, but everybody's
leaving the dining room.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:24:52):
Mm-hmm. Do they not know what's going on? Or they
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:24:54):
Just - And they had not recognized the fact that I'm backed into a corner.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:24:58):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:24:59):
And as I'm maneuvering around his corner, I see something else shiny setting on a table.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:08):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:09):
And all I did was I grabbed it and I slung it. Well, it was a, what they call the steel battleship trays.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:15):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:15):That they fed him on at the time.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:17):
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Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:18):
I threw this thing. And - Frisbee. Uh, like <laugh> they sail like a Frisbee when you cut them loose. Uh,
and it hit the wall. And one guy turned around to see what was going on.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:31):
Hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:32):
And he hollered for everybody else.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:34):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:34):
And the guy gave up.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:36):
Oh, he did? Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:37):
Well, one of the things that I didn't realize, and, and everything happened in such a blur, that I didn't
realize I'd hit this guy.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:45):
Oh, really? You mean with the tray?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:48):
No, I actually, I'd actually physically hit him with a fist.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:51):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:51):
And I broke his nose.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:53):
Oh.Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:54):
Had no blooming clue.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:25:55):
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You probably were like blacking out for part of this or something
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:25:57):
Too. And, and I'm kind of like trying to figure my way out of this.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:00):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:01):
And, and keep maneuvering around tables -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:04):
Uh-huh.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:05):
And trying to keep a table distance between me and this guy. And I'm like, and I'm looking at the back of
the dining room and I'm kind of like,
"Hey, hello.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:14):
Do you think he honestly was just like s- set to kill you at that point if he could?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:18):
No. I think he wanted to go to the federal system.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:20):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:21):
Because the military, uh, when they get individuals like that -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:24):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:25):
They ship them off to the, uh, federal system. Uh-huh. And I found out later, uh, probably a year later or
so, once he got to the federal system, he got murdered.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:39):
Oh. Why did he wanna go there?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:41):
Uh, it -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:43):
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What's
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:43):
In it for him? Different parole guidelines, different -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:46):
Okay. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:47):
Atmospheres - Okay. And such.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:26:49):
Got
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:26:50):
It. Uh, I will tell you that, uh, if, uh, any of you out there have the word disco tattooed on your neck, uh,
don't mind me if I keep a distance between you and me. Uh -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:04):
What is that?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:05):
He had the word disco tattooed on his neck.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:07):
Oh okay. I didn't
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:08):
Know if it was like a larger
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:09):
Group. Like the Aryan Brotherhood that you referenced earlier.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:11):And, and that was one of the things that, that, uh, why things - Is that triggering
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:18):
For you to this
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:19):
Day? To a degree. Yeah. Uh - I
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:21):
Would imagine.
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:23):
One of the things that, that even I noticed about myself. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I don't know why I didn't.
One of these days scientists can, when I'm no longer, uh, uh, in use of the brain -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:38):
Study up?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:39):
Uh, they can study my brain and figure this out. Mm-hmm. Uh, things do slow down.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:45):
What do you mean?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:49):
Situations that I've been in look like they're in slow motion.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:51):
I see. Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:53):
I don't know why.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:54):
Mm-hmm. I
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:27:55):
Can't explain it other than it seems, it appears to me like it slows down.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:27:59):
Mm-hmm. Interesting. Uh -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:28:02):There's gotta
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:28:03):
Be a name for that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:28:05):
Uh, sonality. Um -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:28:07):
Are you, and are you saying like real time or when you're thinking back -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:28:11):
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No, real time. To the
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:28:11):
Incident. Real time. Interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:28:14):
It, it, it's, it, uh, it just totally, for some reason, seems like it - uh-huh. It's like an incident where I was
talking to an individual that was in PC status and I told him we were taking up food trays at the time. And
I told him, I said,
"Hang tight. I need to get this done. I'll be back in a minute.
" Mm-hmm. Well, I came
back and I, it wasn't three minutes later and I walked up to this guy's door and he's laying on the floor.
Yeah. And he's the color of my shirt.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:28:47):
Oh. Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:28:52):
I immediately call for assistance telling him I have a medical emergency. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I went
against protocol. I opened the door and pulled this guy out because he was in a narrow room.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:06):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:08):
Um, that was the second floor of the hospital.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:10):
Mm-hmm.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:12):
And I get this guy out in the hallway, and I immediately start doing CPR on him.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:16):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:16):
Because I recognize the fact that, that this guy's not doing well at all.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:20):
Right.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:21):
And I'm, uh, and each inmate has a quarter's card.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:28):
A quarter's
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Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:28):
Card? A quarter's card. It's a picture of them, uh, with their information on it.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:34):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:35):
And anytime you move an individual from one unit to another - uh-huh. That quarter's card has to go with
them.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:29:40):
Got it.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:29:43):
I went up to grab his quarter's card as they're getting ready to ship him downstairs to the hospital. Mm
hmm. And I grab his quarter's card. And why? I, I looked at his quarter's card and I can visually his
quarter card to this day. Uh-huh <affirmative>. I pulled it up, looked at his name to make sure I had the
right individual. Yeah. And I can read the entire information because it's only like this big. Sure. I can
read the entire information on his card. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. One of the things that struck me right
off the bat, his birthday is May 8th, 1960.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:30:25):
Your birthday?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:30:29):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:30:30):Whoa. That's crazy.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:30:32):
First guy I ever give CPR to.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:30:35):
What did that do to you at that moment or to this day?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:30:38):
Uh, <laugh> my first response was.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:30:41):
Yeah. You're like,
"Is that me? Wait a minute. Am I having an out of body experience?"
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:30:45):
Is that what you got?
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"What is this meant? What, what is happening right now?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:30:45):
Probably
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:30:48):
The only time I've ever showed any type of that being freaked out, I was just like, I, I, I pulled that cart up
out of there and I'm like, no. No kidding. Jesus.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:30:57):
Yeah, you're like,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:30:59):
What does this mean?" What did I do?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:01):
Yeah. Yeah.Y -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:03):
You know, whatever it is, I'll change. I swear. I'm just, man. Uh, and, uh, it, it, it, it was kind of one of
those things that just kind of -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:13):
Just hit you in a
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:15):
And, and it does. WeirdMindy Hargesheimer (01:31:16):
Way. To this day.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:18):
Yeah.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:19):
Absolutely.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:21):
You,
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:21):
I mean, that would be insane if you came out of doing that career without the things that, you know, didn't
stay with you
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:27):
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For life. Uh, the second guy gave CPR too. I don't know if I saved a guy's life or whatever, but it was an
older guy, older inmate, uh, collapsed on the yard. Uh, the windshield factor was 16 below zero. Uh, he
was standing up against a 40 foot wall and I was giving this guy CPR in shirt sleeves.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:49):
In what shirts?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:49):
Shirt sleeves.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:50):
Oh, okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:51):
No coat. No, I was in the dining room at the time. Yeah. They said they had an inmate down on the yard.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:31:55):
Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:31:55):
And I responded. And I'm out there, I'm giving this guy CPR, giving him compressions and breathing and
everything else. And, uh, for all of you listeners out there, uh, you don't get cold doing that.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:32:10):Yeah. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:32:11):
Matter of fact, I was sweating.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:32:13):
Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:32:13):
And I didn't realize, you know, anything about anything else that was going on other than the fact that I
had people coming at me and -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:32:19):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:32:20):
And inmates standing around and watching and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, they bring
a Stokes basket out. Um, and we put him in a basket and there's like six, seven, eight inches of snow on
the ground. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we're motored our way through this and it's inmates and staff
actually carrying this inmate off the yard. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. We get into the hospital and <laugh>
it's one of those situations to where we don't know why the guy said it. We don't have a clue. Don't know.
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The PA looks at us and says,
"Drop him here. I'll go get a stretcher.
" At the exact same time, all of the
inmates and all of the staff dropped this guy in the middle of the floor.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:02):
Just -
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:03):
Let him go.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:03):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:05):
So now you've got a group of inmates and a group of staff members looking at each other in the middle of
this foyer to a hospital and we're looking at each other like,
"Was that really what he meant?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:15):
Is that, did we do this right?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:16):
Were we supposed to do that? Are we in trouble?" And it's like, you know, and, and <laugh> it, it, it was
just kind of one of those, it, it was a reflex to what was said.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:27):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:27):
And it was just like, well, all of us let him go at the same time.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:30):
Yep.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:31):
Well, when he hit the floor, all of a sudden he goes. And
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:34):
He's back.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:35):
And he's back. <laugh> So I'm not for sure I did anything to save this guy's life. And I'm
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:40):
Like, was that intentional? Is that what we wanted out of that or
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:43):
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That
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:33:43):
Just happened by accident?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:33:44):
And, and, uh, several years later, I'm down at Fort Worth, Texas taking training. <laugh> And I'm
standing there talking to a friend of mine I've known for years that's a lieutenant down there. So we're
talking and all of a sudden I feel this tapping on the back of my arm. Uh-huh <affirmative>. I turn around
and I look and it's this guy that I gave CPR - No. To several years before. <laugh>. I looked at him and he
says,
"You remember me?" And I said,
"Yeah.
" And I said,
"Don't expect me to kiss you this time either.
"
<laugh>. And, and we kind of joke about it.That's exactly
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:14):
What I came over here for.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:15):
Yeah. It's, it's kind of like, you know, and, and the lieutenant's looking at me like -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:21):Uh-huh. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:22):
Don't expect me to kiss you?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:24):
Yeah, what, what does that
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:25):
Mean? Where's this
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:25):
Coming from?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:26):
And I said, I gave this guy CPR a couple of years back and it's just like, never thought I'd ever see the guy
again.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:33):
Yeah, no kidding.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:34):
So I've given CPR to, uh, three individuals.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:38):
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Okay. Uh,
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:38):
I'm one for three.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:40):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:40):
Which, uh, quite honestly - We can take that. If I, if I was a baseball player, I'd be a millionaire.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:34:46):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:34:47):
<laugh>. Um, but, uh, so it, it's kind of one of those and, and over the course of my career, and another
thing where correctional officers differ than a lot of, uh, first responders out there is we are the first
responders. We are the fire department. We are the, uh, uh, paramedic. We are the individual that is firston the scene. We're the first person there - uh-huh. <affirmative>. To deal with a situation as it's occurring
from ground zero. Yeah. Uh, I've put out several fires that were started in cells. One in particular, uh, the
fire was so hot that it actually destroyed the two cells above it.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:35:32):
Wow. How did it start?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:35:34):
Uh, they were gonna burn this inmate out, uh, to get him off the compound.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:35:39):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:35:40):
And they had stolen chemicals from the, uh, furniture factory that we had operating at the time.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:35:45):
Got it.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:35:46):
And, uh, they didn't tossed it into the cell. Mm-hmm.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:35:51):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:35:52):
And it's a blaze.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:35:54):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:35:55):
And, uh, I had actually came to work on overtime. We were doing a transport that day. And, uh, I'm in a s
- I'm in a suit and tie looking all professional. Uh-huh
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:36:08):
<affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:36:08):
And I'm sitting on the floor of a cell house putting a fire out. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
(01:36:13):
the officer says,
Uh, responded to a fire in the same cell house one time when, uh, we're standing mainline for lunch. And
"I have a small cell fire.
" And a lieutenant by the name of Bill Slack looks at me and
points at me. And I go down the hallway to this fire and the lieutenant's behind me as we enter the cellhouse. And this fire is literally, and if you could picture a five story building - Yeah. The fire is in the
center portion of the five stories. And there's like two stories between the top of the cell house and the
ceiling. And, uh, it's actually singing the ceiling - Oh my gosh. In the cell house. Yeah. And the lieutenant
turns around and looks at him and says,
"Boy, I hope to God you never ever call in a big fire.
"
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:37:01):
Yeah.That's enough.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:37:02):
That is big
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:37:03):
Enough.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:37:04):
So -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:37:04):
Yeah. So who is going, who is sent to Leavenworth today? Like who, how does, how does that work?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:37:11):
Right now, they, there's a lot of transitional inmates that are coming in and going out of Leavenworth,
meaning that, uh, they have, uh. When CCA was operating a US Marshals Detention Center, they were
holding individuals, they were pret- pretrial inmates. Mm-hmm <affirmative> And under the crime bill
that was passed under the Clinton administration, it dictates that individuals cannot live, cannot be jailed
more than 250 miles away from their original home of Orient originality. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And,
uh, when they decided that they were going to close CCA, they said, well, uh, the federal court in Kansas
City ruled that, uh, you can't just disperse these individuals anywhere across the United States.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:13):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:14):
Because they can't go more than 250 miles away from their home.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:17):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:18):
And plus they're under our jurisdiction for trial.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:21):
Yeah.Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:22):
So you've got that set of inmates that are there now.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:27):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:28):
Uh, you've got just the merit - Do you still have some of
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:31):
The, the like worst
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:33):
Criminals?
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:34):
No. That's not a thing anymore.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:35):
No. They, we, that's where, where I got into the point earlier about, uh, we transitioned our, uh, inmate
population. And it was kind of one of those that was like walking around in an institution that's empty for
a couple of days. It's kind of a weird feeling.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:52):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:53):
It's like, where are they hiding and what are they up to?
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:38:56):
Uh-huh <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:38:56):
Type thing. But it, it's, and over the course of, of my career, uh, I've come across probably some of the
worst of the worst out there. Tommy Silverstein, Clayton Fountain. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, the, uh,
Leonard Peltier.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:17):
And do you say that because of what they did to get in there? Were they, was it their, um, demeanor in
prison when you were working there? Kind of all the above?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:27):It's, it's - What
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:27):
Makes
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:28):
It the worst? It's the whole plethora of, of who they are.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:31):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:33):
The founders of the Aryan Brotherhood, uh -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:37):
Which was a
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:37):
White
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:38):
Supremacist group
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:39):
Within - Right.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:39):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:40):
Then, uh, cartel leaders.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:43):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:44):
Uh, so on and so forth.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:47):
Uh - Like for me, those would be some of the scariest people.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:50):
Right. Uh, we had the, uh, Deluna brother, or not Deluna, uh, yeah, Deluna.Mindy Hargesheimer (01:39:56):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:39:57):
Out of Kansas City with a skimming trial out of Las Vegas.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:40:01):
Okay.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:40:01):
Uh, mafia members. I mean, you can't name, I literally can't name a mafia member that wasn't there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:40:09):
Yeah.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:40:09):
Interesting. John Stanfill worked for me. John Stanfield was the South Philadelphia crime boss. Okay.
That, uh, uh, his exploits included a running, uh, gun battle, uh, down a, uh, highway in Philadelphia.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:40:26):
Oh
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:40:26):
Man. Where a son was actually injured. Uh, Russell Buffalino that I talked about earlier. Yep. Uh, so it,
it's, we had military prisoners there, uh, that had committed murders and stuff while they were in the
military.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:40:46):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:40:47):
We had, uh, literally you just can't name an individual that is, is a high profile individual.
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Mindy Hargesheimer (01:40:55):
That didn't touch that prison at some point.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:40:57):
Yeah. We've had, uh, international spies.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:41:02):
Mm.Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:41:04):
Uh, so we had the 1994 World Trade Center bombers.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:41:10):
Okay. Interesting.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:41:12):
So, uh, had an individual, I can't remember his name, but, uh, the individual that bombed, uh, the United
Nations Building. Yep. Uh, we had the first guy, Rene Verdugo, that was tried and convicted under DNA
evidence - Okay. In federal court. He was the, uh, he was present during the, uh, murder of a DEA agent
in Guadalajara, Mexico.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:41:41):
Wow. So there's gonna be a documentary made about Leavenworth.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:41:45):
Oh, I'm s - I mean, there's -
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:41:47):
You should lead that.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:41:48):
No, there, there's been so many stories and, and stuff written about Leavenworth and a lot of them, uh,
there's some accuracy to them. The exploitation factors are there. Mm. Uh, the legend. Mm-hmm. Uh,
the, uh, the stories and everything that are behind what goes on there.
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:42:10):
Like what?
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:42:11):
Uh, the, the assaults, the murders, the high profile inmates have been there. Probably the prisoners, the
Mindy Hargesheimer (01:42:16):
Inmates.
Kenneth M. LaMaster (01:42:17):
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